Please help....ban fishing guides from gifting their catch to their clients..........

Guides in Wisconsin fish nearly every day. They have the ability to catch many, many fish; and they do. This is not a concern in itself. What is a great concern is the legal practice of guides who gift their catch to clients.

For those who don't know about this here is how it works: a client hires a guide to take him fishing. On most bodies of water without special regulations that client can catch 3 walleye in one day, so far so good. The guide can also catch his 3 walleye. Six total walleye in the boat. Here is where it gets ugly. That guide can drive back to landing and "gift" his catch to the client. The client then goes home with six fish, even though his daily limit is 3. To top it off, they can drive to another lake and repeat this same practice for 4 more walleye (2 each) and send the client home with 10 walleye.

As you can see this practice is of concern. It's nearly impossible to enforce, meaning it's very easy for the guide to simply allow his client to catch all the fish, which is not legal. Also because of how often guides fish there is a concern that this is an abuse of the resource. If the guide was simply fishing for himself he would not be able to keep that many fish day after day because he would exceed his possession limit. This practice allows the keeping of many more fish than what was intended by current law.

What I don’t know is how this loop-hole in the law can be closed. Walleye in Wisconsin are on the decline and this is adding to the problem. How can this be stopped?

The proof is right in from of you if you care to look. I'm NOT going to start violating the terms that LL has imposed on this form and start naming names and so on. There's many photos that you can see right here on LL. Check out the Minocqua area guides social media pages, that would be another good resource for you.  Guides have clearly stated that this is exactly what they do, and guides have been challenged many times in the fish reports section about gifting, those posts have been deleted, and I understand why as explained that was not the correct forum for that. One guide last year said he called the local warden to confirm that what he is doing is legal (which it is). I and others have seen it happen. This is not a secret, it's reality. It's not hard to understand.

Anyone has the option to ignore the problem, or not seek the truth, or be generally pessimistic or apathetic, that's the easy route. It's also the path to destruction of the resource.

It wasn't polite so I pulled it

still no proof

Fishfillet, Yes guides are doing it daily on the same bodies of water over and over and over. It hurts a lot where it's being done. This is the same thing as stuffing freezers full of fish. It's just that the guides have their 100's of daily limits spread-out,  in the freezers that belong to other people. People who paid them to get those fish. Many, many people.

Would you keep 100's of limits of fish on the same lakes and then give those fish to others? I wouldn't. If you did, would you feel good about yourself? I'd feel terrible. Would you feel like you broke the spirit of the law? I would.

If we wouldn't do this ourselves then why should we allow guides to do it? and to top it off - get paid to do it. It's a black eye to all Wisconsin fisherman who are trying to conserve the resource, and hopefully that's the vast majority of us.

I don't think there are enough guides doing this to the degree of hurts anything if doing it at all.  I think there is more of a problem with people filling their fridges passed possession limits. We are losing freedoms every day and the last thing I want is another law in place. 

Muskeyjo1, if you find that someone to gift you Halibut, please give them my name also!!! May DNR could start stocking those in Lake Michigan (I know.....).

The only ways laws work is if they are enforced. With that said I do not gift fish above a person's limit. Compared to the number of actual fishermen the number of guides is low. And of those guides I bet a lot of them aren't gifting multiple limits of fish. I know of non guides who keep their daily limit day after day and stock their fridge. They possess way more than they should. Unfortunately there really isn't a way to enforce that law. Honest people will be honest. Dishonest people will be dishonest. 

Wisconsin is an awesome fishery. Most walleye populations are doing great. Practicing selective harvest is the way to go. I release so many more fish than I keep. But if I continue to fish and never bring my wife a meal, I'll get cut off. You know what I'm talking about. 

Fish smart. Stay safe. And enjoy our natural and renewable resource.

Be a Blessing,

Captain Dan Kirk

I use to give my mom and dad some venison when I was able to harvest a deer. Were they in violation for having venison without a valid license?

Fin Bender, I still don't agree with you. Why is this such a issue with you that you posted this topic in the first place? I would like to see a post of the reasoning behind your main post topic. I can't see any one body of water in any Wisconsin County being over harvested because a very few select Guide's are gifting their own personal catches to client's and if they are who really care's because those fish harvest number's have to be very minimal overall on any body of water in that Wisconsin County. You must of witnessed such an act or heard hearsay that inspired you to post this topic?

In regards to my statement that you quoted, I believe it's the Licensed Wisconsin Angler's choice to gift their catch to anyone whom they please as long as that person receiving the gifted fish doesn't have more than their possession limit of that particular one species of fish and your not selling your gifted catch to that person for financial gain. I don't see why our Wisconsin Fishing Law's should be any different or ban Wisconsin Licensed Fishing Guide's from gifting their catch to a client when it's perfectly legal for you or I to gift someone our catch. Your topic just doesn't make any clear sense to myself why such a ban needs to clearly written in our Wisconsin Fishing Laws. Guides don't profit from their rate's anymore or less just because they might gift their fish to a client. No one is going to get fined or breaking any Wisconsin Fishing Laws if they don't have more than their possession limit of a any species of fish at their residence. What's the difference if a Guide gifts their catch to a client whom that client in most cases doesn't even have any fish to eat at home to begin with? 

I see your topic concern's though, but still think there always is issue's our Wisconsin Fishing Law Makers and those enforcing those law's have to deal with like the many freezer's that have way more than their possession limits of fish in them, let alone that person or residence show proof why they have more than their possession limit's, plus individual's in State or out of State who are actually over harvesting in Wisconsin body's of water, then selling fish for profit. 

Now, I just wish someone would gift me a bunch of Halibut from Alaska! Yummmm.....!!!!

I think the simplest way to achieve a ban on guides gifting fish is a simple addition to NR20.65 in Wisconsin Administrative Code. The addition of (2) under this provision should stop this. Please take a look:

NR 20.65  Report of licensed guides.

1. All Wisconsin guides licensed under the provisions of s. 29.512 (1), Stats., and operating in the Wisconsin waters of Lake Superior, Lake Michigan and Green Bay shall report to the department on blanks to be furnished by the department detailed information regarding their fishing activities which shall include the quantity, the varieties of fish taken, and any other information pertaining to their fishing activities required by the department.

2. No Wisconsin guide licensed under the provisions of s. 29.512 (1), Stats., may give any fish to a person who has paid for guiding services, this applies statewide.

Quote Muskyjo1: You and a friend go fishing, both legally licensed and each catch a limit of whatever species of fish, your friend already know's he has his possession limit at home in the freezer of that species but you don't......

Muskyjo - Do you realize that in your (hopefully) hypothetical situation your "friend" violated the law by fishing for, and keeping, his limit of fish given the fact he already had a possession limit at home in this freezer?

You asked "what does it matter?" It matters because the guides who practice this have a financial incentive to do so, also that they fish more often than the vast majority of Wisconsin's fisherman thereby having the ability to do the most damage to the resource. I'd agree that anyone who gifts away daily limits of fish in an effort to avoid achieving a possession limit is violating the spirit of the law, and is in your words a "fish hog."  Shame on anyone who does so.  I advocate for a law that would prevent it by the most egregious practitioners.

I think it's being shown by both fisherman and guides who have commented on this forum that most guides do not participate in gifting limits of fish. Most agree that gifting fish in an effort to avoid acquiring a possession limit is wrong, unethical. Why do some then condone the ability of a bunch of guides in the Vilas, Oneida, Lincoln county area's to do this?  Please help....ban fishing guides from gifting their catch to their clients.

What does it matter? You and a friend go fishing, both legally licensed and each catch a limit of whatever species of fish, your friend already know's he has his possession limit at home in the freezer of that species but you don't. Now just because it maybe a licensed Guide who gift's his catch to that client who clearly is licensed, may not have their possession limit of that species at home in the freezer and legal within the law's, it personally keep's you awake at night that some Guide's gift their catch to a client? Do you realize how many Angler's in general gift their catch to someone every time they catch fish of any species? That's not breaking any Wisconsin Fishing Law's as long as no legally licensed Angler has more than then their possession limit. 

Poaching, Fish keeping Hog's and non-Sportsman's should be of more of a concern that all it take's for one to file a complaint instead of being concerned with Wisconsin's Fishing Law's and how the law's are written for a licensed Guide whom most are some of the best Conservationist Wisconsin has fishing our water's.

Fin Bender:

Here are some relevant statutes and rules:

29.014  Rule-making for this chapter.                     

(1)  The department shall establish and maintain open and closed seasons for fish and game and any bag limits, size limits, rest days and conditions governing the taking of fish and game that will conserve the fish and game supply and ensure the citizens of this state continued opportunities for good fishing, hunting and trapping....

(2) 

(b)  All of the rules promulgated under this chapter are prima facie reasonable and lawful until found to be otherwise in a final determination by a court.

(c)  Any reference to this chapter includes any rules promulgated under this chapter and any reference to any provision of this chapter includes any rules promulgated under that provision.

(3) Any rule of the department is subject to review in the manner provided in ch. 227, except that if the rule affects only the county in which the appellant resides, the appeal shall be to the circuit court of that county.

(4) No person may challenge the validity of a rule promulgated under this chapter in any prosecution of that person for a violation of this chapter or rules promulgated under this chapter unless the person has previously brought a separate action under s. 227.40 seeking a declaratory judgment on the validity of the rule.

29.512  Guide licenses.  

(1)  No person may engage or be employed for any compensation or reward to guide, direct or assist any other person in hunting, fishing or trapping unless the person is issued a guide license by the department subject to ss. 29.024 and 54.25 (2) (c) 1. d.  No guide license for hunting or trapping may be issued to or obtained by any person who is not a resident of this state.  No guide license may be issued to any person under the age of 18 years.  The holder of a guide license shall comply with all of the requirements of this chapter.

NR 20.65  Report of licensed guides.  All Wisconsin guides licensed under the provisions of s. 29.512 (1), Stats., and operating in the Wisconsin waters of Lake Superior, Lake Michigan and Green Bay shall report to the department on blanks to be furnished by the department detailed information regarding their fishing activities which shall include the quantity, the varieties of fish taken, and any other information pertaining to their fishing activities required by the department. 

There is also chapter 227, specifically Wis. Stat. 227.11 dealing with agency rule making that you should read. Rules require hearings and review and are subject to conditions and limitations.

My take on all of this is that prohibiting fishing guides from gifting fish is something that needs a law change, not a rule.  This eliminates arguments over whether or not the rule is valid. At the same time, it should be clear that the DNR does have authority under 29.014(1) to change season dates, bag limits, and size limits to conserve the walleye population.

I don't think it would be very smart for a guide to fish out their hot spots. I certainly wouldn't be practicing that if I was a guide. How can you make any money, if you can't put a client on fish anymore?

That's very informative madfisher, thanks. It's nice to read some intelligent posts about the subject like yours, Lamboat's, icefishingbest, and a few others.

Am I correct in the assumption that the legislature has conveyed the ability and power to the DNR to enact rules re: the activates of licensed fishing guides? If so, no statute would need to be made or amended, as it could be done by the DNR via administrative code.