I hunt where they have a minimum 4 pt side to be legal (SE Minnesota) but have not seen much improvement other than many basket deer. I am against antler point restrictions figuring a deer is a trophy to different people for different reasons and why should we legally change that.
That said, wondering if there is a better way. Alternating years-one year-4pt minimum, next year, smaller only, that way these basket deer survive to get big.
Thoughts?
MadForLabs, I struggle with APR's as well. For northern Wisconsin, you have habitat, winter severity, and predator issues to consider. For central and southern farmland, they are only going to be as effective as those pulling the trigger. You might improve the age structure by a year. But at 2.5, some guys just won't be able to control themselves. I would also like to see buck tags get more restrictive. Maybe even have a draw for them. They do it out west and it works. While some might whine, I don't see where you think you should be entitiled to 1 or 2 buck tags every year just because you have $24 or $48. Then you can still shoot anything you want when you get the tag. Like I have said many times, I have never heard anyone complain that they have too many bucks.
You can drop me off with a compass in the big woods if you want, nothing I'm scared of. I grew up gun hunting there until I was about 20. For bow hunting we had permission on a private farm, but could do and did do just as well on public land from SE Wisconsin to NC Wisconsin. My dad cut his teeth during the rat race days of kill the first buck you see. Not only did you have to be good as a hunter to succeed, you had to make sure you knew how to get those opportunities before other hunters if you wanted to outperform. So, I learned a lot, heck, even got 2 very nice bucks off public with my bow despite rather limited time put in. I hunt my private exclusively now, but its not like me and a couple of the guys from my group can't hold our own in any environment. My buddy and I could put our public land bucks against most peoples collection of private land bucks.
Just because there are more big bucks by me, doesn't mean it is easy to kill them. Gotta realize, by giving these bucks a pass for a few years, that allows them to get smarter after a point in which they could be dead.
Gotta ask, why do you feel the entire state should be managed just for the way you hunt? I have already put myself on record that I don't feel the state should be managed entirely by the way I hunt.
Also, do you fish for any species on any lakes where the minimum size is bigger than the statewide minimums?
People shoot immature deer because they don't have the skill to outwit a more mature one. Pretty simple.
As Madforlabs indicated below, it's simply a pitty party and only PLH is in attendance. i'm sure he has other friends feeling sorry for themselves as well having a circle jerk out on the public wondering who will arrow that 4 pt they are seeing.
If i wanted to shoot a 1 or 2 year old buck i could have filled a dozen tags already. Why do that, I have 4 food plots that sat all year with no pressure. I'm sure the doe will be piling in late Oct and i'll be watching. you can bet on it. Everything is getting brown and I have the only green. It's should be pretty uneventful...LMAO
I enjoy shooting and eating deer as well. That' why I shot the 120# doe as opposed to the 115# spike. Besides, you can't eat the horns. I'll only bother with a buck when it is going to dress out at 200# or so, there will be a lot more meat to enjoy.
Please enlighten me as to why shooting a big buck is easy and common now. Also, why would you shoot a spike if big bucks are so easy to get now? They have a lot more meat on them. Just think how many more meals of venison you can enjoy with another 85# of carcass weight to cut up.
Interesting editorial in Wisconsin Outdoor News concerning APR, namely that it is not all that effective in increasing age structure ( long term) in the deer herd but rather tends to burn out the older ( 2.5+) age classes.
I'd be totally fine with APR if it were enacted. Realistically, I don't see it happening in Wisconsin and would much rather put my support behind a 1 buck/year program as it would tend to increase selectivity while reducing overall buck kill provided group bagging were eliminated which REALLY needs to happen!
To those who accuse land managers of "horn porn"... What it comes down to is hunting opportunity. I can shoot a yearling buck nearly every time I hunt my land with bow or gun. Why would I want to do that given the fact I love to hunt? Rather, I choose to focus on killing a mature whitetail if/when the proper opportunity presents itself. If not, I get to enjoy watching whitetails and other wildlife throughout the long seasons. Since I won't kill more than one buck per season ( and that is not a given by any means) this is my way of extending my enjoyment.
Nearly every person I know who manages property for deer ( and I know many of them), the focus is NOT on killing deer with huge antlers, but rather, maximizing the potential of their property which often results in some really nice deer being taken.
Comments from those like PLH are the result of envy and too much time watching crappy hunting shows on TV.
PLH, if you're talking about my hunting report, you don't have the full picture. That little dummy spike came out right away and gave me a gimme chip shot I passed on. In fact, he was within 20 yards when I smoked a doe about 20 yards to the left of where he was standing in that picture. The 3.5 year old I saw was near dark and quite a distance away. No chance at a shot, and not much of a comparison of how they presented themselves. I've been seeing some nice bucks this year, but they have all been late in the evenings and no shot opportunities. Maybe you don't have a lot of experience with big bucks, but they don't present themselves as much as small bucks and are certainly more observant and harder to kill. That spike shares the same intelligence as a doe fawn. Every adult doe in the woods is smarter than it.
We certainly have different viewpoints on hunting. I'm going to repeat a thought I think I expressed earlier. Why can't we manage deer like we do muskies? Some lakes are managed for trophies, with different levels of trophy management based on the quality of the water. Others are managed for numbers as a different type of opportunity, again based on the quality of the water. A something for everyone approach? I don't support the same regulations for the entire state because top to bottom there is quite a difference in habitat, carrying capacity, climate, predatation levels, management preferences, etc. However, many on the side of the fence you are on want no changes. You must keep in mind that the preferences of hunters are changing more towards what I prefer than what you prefer. This type of management didn't even exist 30 years ago and is now quite prevalent in many areas despite no state support. If you want to hold tight onto having the regulations for the entire state be only the way you want, you are going to continue to see people like me snap up every acre they can to create the hunting experience they want, while more and more of your like minded folks fold into the spots you are hunting. I don't want to see that and I see changes in management as a way to stem the tide.
Interesting, as I was typing this I got an email from one of my hunting land neighbors. Pictures of a local buck recently shot with a green score sheet that totals 238" on it. Let them go and they will grow.
Mr Bass, so what's wrong with forcing people to have a little higher standards? everyone hated EAB and I admit, there were flaws with it. however, we shot the biggest deer during a 3 year period and it's obviously a result of people not being able to rip the first buck that walks by. I think by people having to earn a buck by taking a doe, it forced people to put meat in the freezer thus making them wait for something worthwhile. Some young bucks got the chance to get a year smarter which made for more young deer to get another year on them.
I don't think it's a bad thing to make some rules to tighten up standards. With the agriculture, marsh and large wood lots WI really does have the terrain to be exceptional. It's the mentality of shoot everything that keeps the quality down. No matter what any meat hunter says, they do want to kill a big buck, they just don't have the patience or the time. So if you have a little willpower to keep your finger off the trigger for a few years you can start taking just 3+ year old bucks and they will always be there. there are always doe to keep meat on the table. If you are in an area that is short on doe....well then it's short on deer in general, that only makes logical sense. If you hunt an area with few deer, why would you shoot the first 1.5 year old buck?
Exactly, that's what I've been trying to say. These forums are echo chambers where like minded people gather. Far from a real sample of the hunting population. One person's experience does not make an argument.
If you know a lot of people who shoot 2 bucks a year and most people I know shoot only 1 buck per year, do we cancel each other out?
If I shoot deer every year and you do not, do we cancel each other out?
That is what we have here. A bunch of really small dots on the map of WI. I mean most people I know shoot deer. If every person who bought a license was like that we'd shoot 600,000 deer a year. Clearly there is a completely different subset of hunters that I do not know. This is why I try to not talk completely one-sided. Not saying I always succeed but I try.
I understand there are a lot of areas in this state where deer numbers are just not where they need to be. I also understand there are certain people that shoot anything and everything they see under the "if it's brown it's down" mentality. The problem with these rules you guys come up with is that it just doesn't apply to everyone. The guys that see and harvest a lot of deer every year aren't on the internet complaining about their lack of deer. My group's only real rule is to shoot mature deer whether buck or doe. While for my own personal benefit I do wish the neighbors felt the same way, I can't really fault them for filling their freezers. Even despite their low standards it doesn't really effect our deer herd in the area.
I hear everyone saying, "not many shoot 2". I'd love to see those numbers.
I know several guys taking 2 bucks a year. Wouldn't seem like much but really what it makes a hunter do is decide if they want meat, or they want to try for horns. It saves a few deer from a bullet. Just the indecision alone will save a few bucks. I know many of the bucks i've killed, it was now or never.
Group bagging is disgusting I agree. it will never go away.
Making the whole state rifle, that was a mistake, they should have made the whole state shot gun and ML.
Shining, should go away.
IMO there are many items that could improve WI, but i'm not sure most care.
ihookem - Baiting argument aside, I've walked that close to fawns in non-baiting counties. They are just pretty stupid overall. One walked through my backyard just last week while I was hauling some wood and it just watched me walk by 15 yards away. It was heading for a corn field down the road, nothing to eat in my yard. I even waved at one in a field one time during bow season and it ran towards me. The doe followed like 'what are you doing?' and I shot it. Its a new technique I've been working on.
Regarding the rest, that is why 2 bucks per year but restrictions on the second one is your best option I believe. 1 buck per year won't fly for numerous reasons. Even if you don't agree with those reasons, many do. The few people who typically shoot 2 bucks per year will be restricted and the others won't be to a great extent. Its in the numbers.
