I think I have gun envy. A relative showed up for deer camp this year with an AR-15 carbine chambered in 350 Legend. Winchester designed the straight-walled cartridge for deer hunting. Should be legal in many states that only allow shotgun rounds. Anyways, I've been watching videos on the cartridge and it's ballistics and I think I want one. Ballistics are similar to the 30-30 winny. Maybe a bit better. Anyone here have one and hunt with it? Thoughts? I know some firearms companies make bolt action rifles in 350L but I'm interested in the black scary gun version.
Guns & Shooting
350 Legend AR-15 for Whitetail
I can appreciate the reason your friend is getting one as I know a couple guys that are the same way...but he is a VERY small percent of the market, and probably NOT the person they are marketing this new caliber to. Most that are looking at 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster rifles are looking at energy and recoil. In my opinion, the 400 Legend is in an awkward spot where you are approaching the recoil of a 450 Bushmaster while only gaining a slight edge in energy from 150-200 yards over the 350 Legend, which is approaching the end of the distance spectrum for any of the three cartridges.
I live in Wisconsin (thankfully) and am not limited to straight wall cartridges. I wanted something with light recoil for my kids and small-framed wife to use that had a heavier, better-constructed projectile than a .243 Win. As you mentioned, the 400 Legend is similar in recoil to the .308 Win, but shoots a pumpkin projectile that limits you to 200ish yards and in. In my situation, I'd buy the .308 because you can easily double your effective range with readily available ammo in many different grains and a host of rifles/platforms . There isn't much out there that recoils similar to a .223/5.56 but shoots a 150-180 gr. bullet and kills deer at 150 yards...Even those that shoot a 450 Bushmaster are not doing so to avoid the recoil of a slug gun...they're doing it to gain effective range. It just doesn't make sense to me why they would launch this new offering that isn't much bigger/better than something they've had wild success with in the 350 Legend...
He has a 450 Bushmaster, a 6.8SPC, a 6.5 Grendel, a 458 SOCOM, plenty of 223/556's and a couple of others, BUT, he doesn't have a 400 Legend. He's harvested 2 deer with his 350 Legend and is now bored with it. Hence why he is adding a new caliber to his gun safe. He (more likely I) will sight in the rifle, he will carry it the first 2 days of deer season and then it will be another safe queen collecting dust among the others. I tinkertoyed a 223 for him with Brux barrel, American Gold trigger, a top-end Zeiss optic and all of the other high end bells/whistles. He fired it 3 years ago (about 10 rounds) and it hasn't moved from the safe since. That's just the kind of guy he is.
If you would like to get technical, the 400 Legend has 20% less recoil than a 450BM, yet has very close energy levels at 200yds (the point where either begin to drop like a rock). The 400 Legend carries similar energy levels at 200yds that the 350 Legend carries at 150yds. The ballistics of the 400 Legend are such that sighted in 3" high at 100yds, will be 3" low at 200yds. As far as he could possibly shoot from a hillside in a mature hardwoods, he need only aim dead center and he will have a dead deer. Recoil impulse on the 400 Legend is near 16 ft/lbs and is on par with a 308 Win. The 450BM offers even more punishment from a benchrest, like about 20% more.
My largest gripe with the 350 Legend was that the combination of "some" rifles/barrels that would be too large in diameter at the front of the chamber and "some" lots of ammunition would have too great of a cannelure crimp, would combine to yield ignition issues.That is because the cartridge must headspace on the mouth of the case. The 400 Legend is similar, but it has a larger diameter case mouth and the brass is slightly thicker. Ignition should be far less of an issue the larger the case diameter. It's kinda like the 9mm vs 45ACP thing.
Supposedly, Savage has multiple rifle offerings. I have not scoured shops to see if theyare inventoried. "Supposedly", ammunition from Winchester/Olin is in good supply (it is via Ammoseek). Have not been to any shops to verify inventories.
They announced the 400 Legend during spring turkey season and the rifles and ammo aren't widely available and deer season has started in 3/4 of the country. Tens of thousands more new rifle sales will go to the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster due to their availability alone. Energy isn't the problem with straight wall cartridges since they shoot fat, heavy bullets...trajectory is. There are negligible gains over the 350 Legend in that department to justify the extra recoil and ammo cost in my opinion. I am not sure what Winchester was thinking with the 400 Legend? I could see another manufacturer trying to steal some of the 350 Legend's thunder by coming out with something like the 400 Legend, but not sure why the parent company of the former would do that? If I wanted to step up from the 350 Legend and wanted more energy, I'd go straight to the 450 Bushmaster for the simple fact that once you elect to go above the 350 Legend, recoil and ammo cost is no longer a consideration. To me, it would be like preparing to go on a western hunt by selling your .270 Win. to buy a .30-06 SPRG (slightly larger bullet with similar ballistics and more recoil) instead of buying a 7mm Mag, .300 Win Mag, etc.
Windpudding,
What ammo did your grandson use to shoot that doe, if you don't mind me asking? I am currently using the 150 gr. Deer Season XP because I'm concerned about the 170-180 gr. soft points not expanding at 125-150 yards due to velocity/energy loss at those distances. I know the gun will hit them right where I want, but I want the terminal performance to match the accuracy. Both my AR upper and Savage Axis will do sub-MOA when I do my part. The only ammo neither of them like is the Federal PowerShok/Non Typical, which have ~2-2.5" groups at 100 yards. Would still work in a pinch, but other ammo does half that!
I have yet to hunt with one, but but my buddy has. Tinkertoyed this for him with a barrel from Bear Creek. It has fired multiple 1MOA groups at 100yds and has harvested a couple of average sized Central WI whitetails. One shot at about 50yds and the other at 75. Both animals were lung shot with Win 180gr soft points and did not travel far. Recoil is a smidgen over that of a std 223, but the recoil impulse has a longer dwell. A perfect caliber for whitetail in the woods because it will deliver >1000 ft/lbs at 150yds, a long poke in the average woods with a flat enough trajectory to that distance.
The only real issue with the 350 Legend is that "some" chambers and ammunition have an issue with ignition. This is because the cartridge headspaces on the mouth of the case. Crimped ammo is a no-no. Make certain that you test a given lot of factory ammo for reliable ignition.
Jimmer,
I did the same thing...ordered a couple cases of the ammo mine shot best...which was 150 gr. Deer Season XP and Hornady American Whitetail 170 gr. I also ordered a set of reloading dies, 300 pieces of Starline brass and some Hornady bullets to roll a few of my own in case the caliber didn't take to the market, which we now know it has plenty of traction!
I did a bunch of reading that got me interested, but availability of the ammo was a big part of what swung my decision to get one. I am gonna load up on a bunch of it just in case that changes down the line. I ordered online last week and it was delivered to my FFL dealer yesterday. Looking Forward to picking it up today.
I would love one in the AR Platform, but went with a Winchester XPR for now. It’s paired with a Vortex Crossfire II. I also ordered 5 boxes of 170 grain ammo at $21/box.
Hoping to fill a doe tag with it in the extra season.
Good luck BT.
RangerKid,
It's actually the exact opposite...350 Legend is some of the most affordable centerfire rifle ammo available...and the nice thing is: it is AVAILABLE!! EVERYWHERE! Maybe his is 450 Bushmaster??? That stuff is like $40-45/box...
I have two of these gems...an 18" AR-15 Upper and a Savage Axis XP 16" Heavy Barrel. No recoil, accurate (sub-MOA with both rifles at 100 yards), inexpensive ammo to include FMJ plinking ammo @ $15/box, great terminal performance...what's not to like? My niece and nephew have killed a couple deer this year with their 350 Legend. Great on-game performance! None of the deer went over 60 yards and had good blood trails that a 9 and 11 year old could follow. For my AR upper I have two 10-round P-Mags that I modified from 5.56 to 350 Legend with a Dremel tool and a sanding drum. They work flawlessly and having 10 rounds of .35 caliber ammo in a handy, quick-pointing rifle is awesome! I am contemplating taking the 3-9x40 scope off my AR and mounting a red dot and using it for deer drives.
The ammo, like all ammo, went up a LOT this year. When I purchased my upper two years ago, Deer Season XP 150 gr. ammo was $19.94/box at WalMart and 145 gr. FMJ was $9.96/box. Now the Deer Season XP is $32-34/box and the FMJ are $15/box.
But to answer your question...GET ONE! It is a very fun caliber to shoot and works very well on deer out to 200 yards. I bought a set of reloading dies and am starting to roll my own ammo for mine as well...which is almost as fun as shooting my 350's!