I think I have gun envy. A relative showed up for deer camp this year with an AR-15 carbine chambered in 350 Legend. Winchester designed the straight-walled cartridge for deer hunting. Should be legal in many states that only allow shotgun rounds. Anyways, I've been watching videos on the cartridge and it's ballistics and I think I want one. Ballistics are similar to the 30-30 winny. Maybe a bit better. Anyone here have one and hunt with it? Thoughts? I know some firearms companies make bolt action rifles in 350L but I'm interested in the black scary gun version.
Guns & Shooting
350 Legend AR-15 for Whitetail
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Gman762,
I can appreciate the reason your friend is getting one as I know a couple guys that are the same way...but he is a VERY small percent of the market, and probably NOT the person they are marketing this new caliber to. Most that are looking at 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster rifles are looking at energy and recoil. In my opinion, the 400 Legend is in an awkward spot where you are approaching the recoil of a 450 Bushmaster while only gaining a slight edge in energy from 150-200 yards over the 350 Legend, which is approaching the end of the distance spectrum for any of the three cartridges.
I live in Wisconsin (thankfully) and am not limited to straight wall cartridges. I wanted something with light recoil for my kids and small-framed wife to use that had a heavier, better-constructed projectile than a .243 Win. As you mentioned, the 400 Legend is similar in recoil to the .308 Win, but shoots a pumpkin projectile that limits you to 200ish yards and in. In my situation, I'd buy the .308 because you can easily double your effective range with readily available ammo in many different grains and a host of rifles/platforms . There isn't much out there that recoils similar to a .223/5.56 but shoots a 150-180 gr. bullet and kills deer at 150 yards...Even those that shoot a 450 Bushmaster are not doing so to avoid the recoil of a slug gun...they're doing it to gain effective range. It just doesn't make sense to me why they would launch this new offering that isn't much bigger/better than something they've had wild success with in the 350 Legend...
I can appreciate the reason your friend is getting one as I know a couple guys that are the same way...but he is a VERY small percent of the market, and probably NOT the person they are marketing this new caliber to. Most that are looking at 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster rifles are looking at energy and recoil. In my opinion, the 400 Legend is in an awkward spot where you are approaching the recoil of a 450 Bushmaster while only gaining a slight edge in energy from 150-200 yards over the 350 Legend, which is approaching the end of the distance spectrum for any of the three cartridges.
I live in Wisconsin (thankfully) and am not limited to straight wall cartridges. I wanted something with light recoil for my kids and small-framed wife to use that had a heavier, better-constructed projectile than a .243 Win. As you mentioned, the 400 Legend is similar in recoil to the .308 Win, but shoots a pumpkin projectile that limits you to 200ish yards and in. In my situation, I'd buy the .308 because you can easily double your effective range with readily available ammo in many different grains and a host of rifles/platforms . There isn't much out there that recoils similar to a .223/5.56 but shoots a 150-180 gr. bullet and kills deer at 150 yards...Even those that shoot a 450 Bushmaster are not doing so to avoid the recoil of a slug gun...they're doing it to gain effective range. It just doesn't make sense to me why they would launch this new offering that isn't much bigger/better than something they've had wild success with in the 350 Legend...
For a person that has a 350 Legend, the 400 Legend will not be their cup of tea and rushing out to acquire one doesn't make much sense. That is of course, unless you have more $$$ than anyone should be allowed to have and you just want to be the first one on the block with one. My friend falls into that category. He now has 12 boxes of Winchester/Olin 400 Legend w/215gr Power Point ammo en route via AE Ammo as well as a new barrel.
He has a 450 Bushmaster, a 6.8SPC, a 6.5 Grendel, a 458 SOCOM, plenty of 223/556's and a couple of others, BUT, he doesn't have a 400 Legend. He's harvested 2 deer with his 350 Legend and is now bored with it. Hence why he is adding a new caliber to his gun safe. He (more likely I) will sight in the rifle, he will carry it the first 2 days of deer season and then it will be another safe queen collecting dust among the others. I tinkertoyed a 223 for him with Brux barrel, American Gold trigger, a top-end Zeiss optic and all of the other high end bells/whistles. He fired it 3 years ago (about 10 rounds) and it hasn't moved from the safe since. That's just the kind of guy he is.
If you would like to get technical, the 400 Legend has 20% less recoil than a 450BM, yet has very close energy levels at 200yds (the point where either begin to drop like a rock). The 400 Legend carries similar energy levels at 200yds that the 350 Legend carries at 150yds. The ballistics of the 400 Legend are such that sighted in 3" high at 100yds, will be 3" low at 200yds. As far as he could possibly shoot from a hillside in a mature hardwoods, he need only aim dead center and he will have a dead deer. Recoil impulse on the 400 Legend is near 16 ft/lbs and is on par with a 308 Win. The 450BM offers even more punishment from a benchrest, like about 20% more.
My largest gripe with the 350 Legend was that the combination of "some" rifles/barrels that would be too large in diameter at the front of the chamber and "some" lots of ammunition would have too great of a cannelure crimp, would combine to yield ignition issues.That is because the cartridge must headspace on the mouth of the case. The 400 Legend is similar, but it has a larger diameter case mouth and the brass is slightly thicker. Ignition should be far less of an issue the larger the case diameter. It's kinda like the 9mm vs 45ACP thing.
Supposedly, Savage has multiple rifle offerings. I have not scoured shops to see if theyare inventoried. "Supposedly", ammunition from Winchester/Olin is in good supply (it is via Ammoseek). Have not been to any shops to verify inventories.
He has a 450 Bushmaster, a 6.8SPC, a 6.5 Grendel, a 458 SOCOM, plenty of 223/556's and a couple of others, BUT, he doesn't have a 400 Legend. He's harvested 2 deer with his 350 Legend and is now bored with it. Hence why he is adding a new caliber to his gun safe. He (more likely I) will sight in the rifle, he will carry it the first 2 days of deer season and then it will be another safe queen collecting dust among the others. I tinkertoyed a 223 for him with Brux barrel, American Gold trigger, a top-end Zeiss optic and all of the other high end bells/whistles. He fired it 3 years ago (about 10 rounds) and it hasn't moved from the safe since. That's just the kind of guy he is.
If you would like to get technical, the 400 Legend has 20% less recoil than a 450BM, yet has very close energy levels at 200yds (the point where either begin to drop like a rock). The 400 Legend carries similar energy levels at 200yds that the 350 Legend carries at 150yds. The ballistics of the 400 Legend are such that sighted in 3" high at 100yds, will be 3" low at 200yds. As far as he could possibly shoot from a hillside in a mature hardwoods, he need only aim dead center and he will have a dead deer. Recoil impulse on the 400 Legend is near 16 ft/lbs and is on par with a 308 Win. The 450BM offers even more punishment from a benchrest, like about 20% more.
My largest gripe with the 350 Legend was that the combination of "some" rifles/barrels that would be too large in diameter at the front of the chamber and "some" lots of ammunition would have too great of a cannelure crimp, would combine to yield ignition issues.That is because the cartridge must headspace on the mouth of the case. The 400 Legend is similar, but it has a larger diameter case mouth and the brass is slightly thicker. Ignition should be far less of an issue the larger the case diameter. It's kinda like the 9mm vs 45ACP thing.
Supposedly, Savage has multiple rifle offerings. I have not scoured shops to see if theyare inventoried. "Supposedly", ammunition from Winchester/Olin is in good supply (it is via Ammoseek). Have not been to any shops to verify inventories.
I have reservations about how well the 400 Legend will do...It has 20-25% more energy than the 350 Legend, but with quite a bit more recoil (approaching the well-established 450 Bushmaster). And with even fewer (almost no) hunting bullets, the ammo will be quite a bit more expensive to manufacture. They launched the 400 Legend over 6 months ago, and from what I have seen and heard, the rifles themselves are nowhere to be found. Many thought the 350 Legend solved a problem that didn't exist, but what do you call the 400 Legend then...? The 350 checked a lot of boxes...good ballistics (similar to .30-30 Win)…straight wall state legal...very low recoil...still has adequate energy out to 200 yards for deer...inexpensive ammo compared to most centerfire calibers...widely available within a couple months of being launched...all good things, with perhaps the biggest selling points being low recoil (great for introducing new hunters such as children and females) and inexpensive ammo (allows for more practice for the new hunters). I have two 350 Legends (an AR-15 upper and Savage bolt action) for the simple reason that most shots on my hunting property are in the woods and within 125 yards. It is the perfect caliber for that scenario. My kids will be able to shoot it well, as will my wife if she wants to use it.
They announced the 400 Legend during spring turkey season and the rifles and ammo aren't widely available and deer season has started in 3/4 of the country. Tens of thousands more new rifle sales will go to the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster due to their availability alone. Energy isn't the problem with straight wall cartridges since they shoot fat, heavy bullets...trajectory is. There are negligible gains over the 350 Legend in that department to justify the extra recoil and ammo cost in my opinion. I am not sure what Winchester was thinking with the 400 Legend? I could see another manufacturer trying to steal some of the 350 Legend's thunder by coming out with something like the 400 Legend, but not sure why the parent company of the former would do that? If I wanted to step up from the 350 Legend and wanted more energy, I'd go straight to the 450 Bushmaster for the simple fact that once you elect to go above the 350 Legend, recoil and ammo cost is no longer a consideration. To me, it would be like preparing to go on a western hunt by selling your .270 Win. to buy a .30-06 SPRG (slightly larger bullet with similar ballistics and more recoil) instead of buying a 7mm Mag, .300 Win Mag, etc.
They announced the 400 Legend during spring turkey season and the rifles and ammo aren't widely available and deer season has started in 3/4 of the country. Tens of thousands more new rifle sales will go to the 350 Legend and 450 Bushmaster due to their availability alone. Energy isn't the problem with straight wall cartridges since they shoot fat, heavy bullets...trajectory is. There are negligible gains over the 350 Legend in that department to justify the extra recoil and ammo cost in my opinion. I am not sure what Winchester was thinking with the 400 Legend? I could see another manufacturer trying to steal some of the 350 Legend's thunder by coming out with something like the 400 Legend, but not sure why the parent company of the former would do that? If I wanted to step up from the 350 Legend and wanted more energy, I'd go straight to the 450 Bushmaster for the simple fact that once you elect to go above the 350 Legend, recoil and ammo cost is no longer a consideration. To me, it would be like preparing to go on a western hunt by selling your .270 Win. to buy a .30-06 SPRG (slightly larger bullet with similar ballistics and more recoil) instead of buying a 7mm Mag, .300 Win Mag, etc.
Ordered a barrel for a friend's AR carbine in the big brother of the 350 Legend. This one will be a 16 inch, 400 Legend. Most all available data shows the cartridge is being tested to longer barrels (22"), so we have no specifics on what it will do in a 16" carbine. No doubt it will be plenty in the woods and flat enough to use a center-hold as far as a person can sneak a bullet through.
kid started building hopefully he has it done before hunting hes looking foward to loading his own rounds
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