Refund of Deposit

Wanted to know the opinion of all of you who regularly go to Canada. I’m the leader of a group. The group can change each year by one or two guys. This year two of the guys our new.One of them is in his 80s and would actually fly into Wisconsin to join us this year. Age and health issues. This was going to be is once-in-a-lifetime fishing trip to Canada. Given that we are scheduled for the second week of the season, it looks like we are out of luck.

The outfitter I use purchased the business about three years ago. We have been going to this location for well over 20 years. Overall, the new owners have been decent and good. However, they are taking the position that they will roll the deposit over for a year or two but they will not return. This is not making the 80-year-old newcomer happy, given that he doesn’t think he will be able to go next year.

I can understand losing the deposit if you voluntarily do not go on the trip. However, this does not seem right to me, given that we cannot cross the border.  What do all of you think?

I understand outfitters are receiving no government help, per previous posts. However, I have heard that employees in Canada are receiving 75% of their earnings. Is this true?

Being an outfitter brings us many challenges and in 2020, who knows who will survive, time will tell, but there is no help except for what we are doing ourselves.  There are no standards, each outfitter chooses how to operate, many just for money, but others for the love of the wilderness, meeting great people and promoting love of nature and all it has to offer.  

The response from Clark's on keeping the deposit was a example of how not to do business, we are in a pandemic and you refuse to roll over until next season, as this is the industry standard, remember the customer has not canceled or failed to show, you are basically being forced into investing in a camp to survive make payroll and not benefit from your investment, something doesn't add up here and the little blurb at the bottom of the deposit form that says nonrefundable, is not as cut and dry when the customer has zero control over a pandemic, the airlines tried this and lost. 

The response I received from Clarks camp when I asked about a refund or rollover of my deposit ($300).

Morning Chuck; 

Unfortunately we are not in a position at this time to either refund NOR defer deposits to a future year... If we have ANY chance of surviving and avoiding bankruptcy, deferral of deposits forward from a season that was going to be our best on record, to a future year, would mean a very long summer of what looks to be "zero revenue" followed by an even longer winter of "almost zero revenue" it would be most assured that we would no longer be in business....we hope you understand....

Karla and Wayne Clark

Clark's Resort's and Outposts

Clark's Air Service

I guess all I can do is hope thing's turn around for the Clark's and wait for the profit sharing check from them when they do.

All of our monies have been refunded.  We get ZERO from any government USA or CANADA, no help from anyone.  With that said, we will survive.  That is because we work our asses off 12 months out of the year, have full time other employment to offset this disaster.  

We are honest, hardworking, hard nosed honest outfitters, and know full well how hard most customers work for their money, and it works well for us, maybe that is why we have a waiting list for Bear and Moose hunters!

I'm willing to give my deposit to help. Will the lodge be willing to help me in the future when I want to go on vacation but am short on money because work is slow.

It is definitely in the best interest of the Canadian government to help to protect there cash cow of fees, taxes and land use permits. Come on Canada! 

Camps are 98+% American guests and the border is closed, so they are shut down and have no employees. So employee assistance to Canadian businesses isn't usable. Canadians in general, I think get $2000/mo for 4 months but doesn't apply to Americans owning lodges/resorts. Lodges and businesses affected may qualify for a Gov't backed $40,000 loan which kind of just makes the hole deeper.

Other than if they've received the $1200 US support check, American camp owners receive $0 assistance from Canada, $0 business support from US assistance or Canada, and $0 unemployment assistance from either side. Again, not a reason at all to just out and out KEEP a deposit, but flexibility may be necessary. 

As far as poor business practice comment...again, not whining, we will make it, just trying to share this side of the fence.  My input would be that yes, some are poor money managers as any industry would have, and weeding out the bad ones is part of the system and that's good. But having them go broke doesn't serve the subject at hand of how to handle deposits...you'll never get it or be able to use it in that case. Reports are 500,000 US restaurants (service industry as is a fishing lodge) will be permanently closed because of this, representing 76% of the industry, and poor business practice does not create that. Primarily those are small individual/family places...most of small businesses do not have the luxury of being able financially weather total shutdown for a month, much less 20 months as camps are seeing happening. Yes we could get a job at the local Home Depot to make some money to get by, but wouldn't be a drop in the bucket for expenses that have to be met even when not operating.

Just something things to be considered in the big picture.      

I understand that Canada, like the USA, is paying Canadians who are unemployed. Are camp owners or their employees receiving government aid?

As I do feel sorry for the position most outfitters  are in, i also feel sorry for every American small business, bar and restaurant.

Keeping somebody's deposit to me is most unethical. If outfitters are a year to year make or brake I would evaluate your business plan.

I was in charge of running a business for many years and keeping somebody's money without delivering would be a death wish.

Yes I agree, leave up for people to voice their opinions.  We feel the same about red squirrels, I remember one night eating dinner in the lodge and a guy gets up and runs to the wall near the kitchen, grabbing a red squirrel and those little buggers are nasty to say the least.  

Beaver dams by me I have to clear when going bear baiting and yes what a nightmare.  Call the MNR, they send out a trapper, he doesn't show up for weeks, so yes I clean them each day and those guys are insane workers.  Just think if you had a crew like that working here in the US, the production you would have!  

But on the bright side, I am having fresh sweet corn and watermelon for dinner.  

I think we now need to start thinking about 2021. For the super careful, there may be no end to this problem. There will always be some risk.

Shad...thanks. Looks like some of the harsher and uninformed critical comments have been taken down since my post...they shouldn't be. It's good to get peoples impression and thoughts and be able to address it openly.  Even without those deleted comments, I guess I'll just leave mine up for awhile anyway so others can get both sides of the picture.

Flying squirrels we can kind of take, but we have a war on red squirrels...when they get in a cabin or lodge, they are some destructive little critters!

By the way, you're supposed to just JUMP those Beaver dams with the boat, not tear them apart :-) Fun times. Those dams are just rebuild by them again an hour later anyway, right?  

To One-Last-Cast:  Very well said, we are owners and in the same boat as you and mighty struggle is an understatement.  But as I write, I think that our camp is on good hands with the Flying squirrels whom most likely staying in our lodge because their is no one to disturb them!  As I sit at the computer in air conditioning, I think of where I would be today and it would be bear baiting and cutting in baits.  Hotter than hell up there too, but then I think of Beaver Dams we break, and after getting done, stopping and listening to the wilderness, there is nothing like it!  As a teacher and outfitter, the wilderness brings me my sanity and you are correct, I would not trade those experiences for anything in the world!  Keep your chin up, better days are ahead!

Thanks for that Peanut09...the last glimmer of hope for even a partial summer evaporated 2 days ago when they extended the 14 day quarantine rule to the end of August EVEN if the border opens somewhat. With that the 2020 season is a wash.

Get this...we are allowed to go up because we own the lodge to check it out, do maintenance, mow the grass-probably so tall we could sell it for hay by now :-), etc, but are required to quarantine for 14 days in place. We are remote and miles and miles from any, or would never even see another human, yet during the 14 days can't even be in a boat by myself until the 14 days is over. Once I would step back off the property even into a boat we would be in violation of the requirement.

Hope they let me catch a Walleye off the dock when I get there...I'm going thru withdrawal pains this time of year from being without Walleye from "catching to fry pan" in 10 minutes. People satisfied with frozen fish have never had that!

Anyway...been there many years, and will be there many more, but this is a huge setback! The safest thing to be at the lodge right now is a fish, but watch out next summer! 

One last cast, I feel for you and all the other lodging and resorts in Canada. Hopefully there is a glimmer of hope that some of the season can be saved. A friend of mine owns a Canadian resort and is having a hard time also as most are. Hopefully they will all be there in the end. Good luck to all.